Mike Tippett wrote:
"I tend to agree with Bernie's summation, although Brian does have
some good points. However, most of the criteria Brian sets forth are
very reminiscent
of an economist's take on what's really important. I am an
enthusiast first, although I am also conversant with economics."
That's true, I've got to agree with you there, Mike. Guess I was
concentrating on a business/economics slant, not the 'enthusiast' take
that you provided, which has lots of relevancy.
"Please remember, above all, that economic criteria such as share
value, ROI, output and reputation within the industry are by
definition short-term, relatively epehemeral measures of worth.
Economics has many failings, among which are its inability to
effectively plan for even the meduim-term future."
All true, quite likely, but I think PSA's sound financial footing at
present most definitely gives them a leg up as to whether they can more
effectively compete around the world....whether they choose to or not is
another story though...
"So, what is lacking in Brian's list is more of the things that I
value, related more to car ownership and enjoyment than pedagogical
abstractions or investment counselling:
-bulletproof reliability (see Toyota and others)"
PSA most definitely still has a ways to go for this, very true.....
"-excellence in chassis design (PSA's been slipping here of late)"
If they're slipping here, it's not by much at all, and whether they are
or not is quite subjective, to be sure.....
"-very good build quality (could be better)"
Yes, nowadays pretty decent, but could surely be even better. Supposedly
the new 607 has awesome build quality though.....
"-superb ride (formerly a Peugeot hallmark)"
I'd argue this is STILL a hallmark of Peugeots.
"-very tough, super-robust drivetrains (not really possible with FWD)"
Very true.....they should've gone to RWD with the big 607.....
"-design flair, beauty (a mixed bag, ranging from the 406C to the 106)"
Yep, beauty in the eye of the beholder as always.....
"-"je ne sais quoi", the intangible benefit of owning a particular car"
Well, at least here in the States, that's definitely possible with the
rarity of the marque here; a re-entry would surely thrill those that
gravitate to something unique and different...
"Then there are some other management issues, among which are:
-aggressive management (not really, but it can get you into trouble)"
PSA is sort of lacking such an aggressive management.....I do think they
could use more of that....and perhaps that type of management style is
building slowly.....I hope.
"-no fear of tough competition (they SHOULD be in USA, NOW!!!)"
Yes, I agree that PSA is like a dog with its tail between its
legs......they always seem to slink off when the going gets
tough....when it should anger them so that they'd come back fighting
twice as tough. This is something they most definitely need to foster
within their company......
"-positive attitude towards customers (it's not in the French psyche)"
Yeah, they lack this for sure, too.......they need it to be successful
in most markets, too...they've been just getting by in this regard for
years.
"-good understanding of marketing (a mixed bag here)"
I think they probably have good marketing people, just not for the N.
American market. Apparently they've been successful marketing to diverse
countries within Europe and around the world. Now they need to figure
out what to do here to sell.....
"-serious long-term committments to each market (I can dream can't I?)"
Yes, they need a game-plan that they can stick with for years toward a
goal of breaking into a market. They can't just leave when it gets rough
like they've done in 1991 here...
"The reason that Peugeot cannot be a "world player" until they have
more than a token presence here is that the US market is without a
doubt the world's most competitive."
I do agree with this comment, full-heartedly...
" I think Peugeot is literally scared to death about all the US consumer
protection laws, class action lawsuits, warranty insurance costs, etc,
and scared by the abilities of their potential competition over here."
Yes, and who wouldn't be? lol Trouble is, the other foreigners are
here, and competing.......no reason PSA shouldn't feel they can
likewise.....they need more of a 'can do' attitude.....guess for the N.
American market they're still smarting.......sort of like once bitten
twice shy I guess...time they snapped out of it.
"Although there is some evidence that their recent models have
improved, they are still average at best. This is not enough, they
have to strive to be better."
Actually, I feel there's been a whole lot of evidence that the recent
models are much better than the earlier ones. I guess you could say
they're average cars, but they routinely come out ahead of marques like
Ford and Vauxhall/Opel, so I'd at least rate them a bit above average...
"Their current aggressive expansion is aimed at the Third World. Yes,
those markets are growing. But they are immature, and subject to
more volatility. Also, the "consumers" (formerly known
as "citizens", or "people") in these countries are not very
demanding, to be quite frank. If PSA is successful in this, and
these countries become PSA's main export market, don't you think
their customers in Europe might wonder in ten years' time why they
won't (or can't) sell a car in the USA, where customers are the most
demanding in the world? What would Peugeot's marketing slogan
be? "Buy a Peugeot, the official car of the Third World"? "
I agree entirely; I've always been very bugged by PSA's reliance on
breaking into 3rd World markets to gain sales, relying upon average
economy cars at best for such markets. This sort of thing doesn't tax
their abilities enough and make them a better company. It's kind of an
easy way out. It's a short-term fix and they need to look more longer
term. If they feel they can't sell in the USA, that's a problem, and not
to fix this situation ASAP is basically just stupid.
"Participation in the US market sharpens competitive skills, demands
very high engineering and management skills and prepares companies
for any challenges elsewhere in the world."
No doubt......that's exactly what it does.....
"I've got to hand it to US people, they don't take shitty or even
average products lying down."
Well, there are quite a few shoddy products sold in this country that
people happily buy up, because we live in such a consumer-oriented,
throw-away society, they just figure it'll last only so long, and it's
cheaper to buy another than to fix it anyway. VCRs have gotten to this
level. I suppose KIAs and Hyundais are sort of in this category too.
Somehow, these things sell, generally because certain segments of the
population only have so much money to spend so their choices are
limited. Still, I do think the USA probably has some of the most
demanding customers, especially for autos.
"Western Europe is far behind here: Scandinavia and Germany are the EU
areas with the most advanced consumer laws/civil movements, and the
German Gov't still won't allow companies to offer standard warranties
exceeding 3 years (most are 1 year, 20,000 km!!), as it would be
an "unfair competitive advantage". BMWs and Mercedes have one year
warranties in their home markets; welcome to the 1960s! France lags
behind Germany in consumer law and awareness. And it is the
company's stronghold."
Yeah, the USA poses lots of new problems for companies generally only
familiar with other markets. Still, I don't think a new Peugeot would
have any problems being christened with a 3 yr/36,000 mile warranty here
in the US. It would easily accommodate such a warranty. Even back in the
505 days this existed in the USA, and the powertrain warranty was 5
yr/50K -- so even though PSA doesn't need to meet such high warranty
levels back home or in Europe, I think their products are built well
enough, especially nowadays (considering even the 505s held up
decently), where they would have no problem offering a solid warranty
here.
"Citroen will never be the same as it was in the 1960s - modern
markets don't allow for engineer's dreams to be built any more.
There is precious little room for unprofitable, over-engineered cars
these days. That's what almost sank Citroen in 1974 (and 1934, for
the historically inclined). The new Citroens will be innovative in
a "new Beetle" kind of way, but like the Beetle, more or less a mere
shadow of their former selves. The market wouldn't allow it to be
any other way."
Yes, sadly true.....however, most people don't care about all the quirky
engineering.......perhaps quirky, out of the ordinary styling and a few
odd gizmos is all it'll take to make most younger people think of the
marque as a real unique offering.
"Another comment: I just can't accept that VALEO is a "top-notch
supplier". I've paid too much money to those "salauds" in
replacement parts to believe it! Mikey's Postulate on VALEO: I think
that they designed barely-adequate (crap) products on purpose, low-
balled the manufacturers with a super-cheap loss-leader contract,
intending all along to make all their profit by selling replacements
for the crap OEM stuff that breaks prematurely. Seriously."
I've never thought of it that way, Mike. But if true that would be
amazing. I know you've stated previously of all your troubles with
Valeo alternators, radiators, HVAC systems, etc. However, there's
just as many people that have NOT had those problems, me included.
Maybe you've just had bad luck. In any case, Valeo has grown
substantially
and many, many OEMs use their components. If they were as bad as you
seem
to think, there's no way the quality-control people at OEMs would be
going with
their parts for long--and they've currently got tons of huge contracts
with lots of
OEMs.
"Brian, please don't laugh at the Prius."
I wasn't laughing at it, per se, I was just thinking that whatever
Bernie was seemingly trying to imply wasn't very clear. He went from
berating PSA's chances to raving about the Prius' build quality. He
didn't really bridge his thoughts effectively and it left me in the
dark.
"(Prius) It may be ugly, but we'll all be driving something like it in
15 years."
God, let's hope not!
"Where is Peugeot with the innovative hybrids? A few electric vehicles
in municipal fleets and for wealthy Parisians won't cut the mustard."
You're off-base here if you think that's all they've got. They've got
probably as many projects as anyone now in development for alternative
powered vehicles, from all that I've read.
"You know why Honda, Toyota, Mercedes and Ford are ahead on alternative
fuels?"
I wouldn't necessarily say they're ahead of PSA; that's not a given,
that's your opinion. I'd have to say they're likely on par with the
others.
"Mainly because of California's CARB regulations."
This is surely a factor for the development of alternative fueled
vehicles, for manufacturers participating in the US market. However, it
could be argued that
the newest regulations in some European markets are also huge catalysts
for this
drive for cleaner vehicles. Peugeot even now is forced to comply in
those markets
and that is driving their research. Because they don't sell here, in CA
specifically, I don't think really means they would otherwise not be
aggressively investigating such research. See comments immediately above
on last point.
"Having written all that, I hope that PSA has an epiphany and comes
back to the USA and Canada. Because it is a healthy presence here
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Thu 04 Jan 2001 - 06:27:01 UTC