Hi Steve, Drive a 79 2.8 liter 604. You are in for a pleasant surprise if the car is well maintained and safe, 5 speed or auto. Yes, Mercedes was impressed. Do not know about BMW. Regards, Bernie
------Original
From: Steve Leung <firepiston@juno.com>
To: jacomb2@attglobal.net
Sent: January 5, 2001 1:54:00 PM GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Peugeot's standing "dans le monde entier"
The gas 604 is very nice. Lot's more power than the TD version and
quiet. I have a mint 79 604 V6 SL with 42k. It is a sweet car!
Steve
On Thu, 4 Jan 2001 23:03:44 -0700 <jacomb2@attglobal.net> writes:
>Hi, Bernie!
>
>Did BMW & Mercedes really feel the 604 line as "competition". I'd
>like to
>drive the gas 2.8 6-cyl 604 sometime. Are they nice?
>
>Jim Combs
>504/604
>-----
>From: "Bernard Kaye" <eviebob@earthlink.net>
>To: <Peugeot-L@egroups.com>
>Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 11:06 AM
>Subject: RE: [Peugeot-L] Re: Peugeot's standing "dans le monde
>entier"
>
>
>> Mike, Having a degree in economics, I agree with you that sometimes
>it
>gets theorized to death of common sense. Also, that Peugeot tends to
>take
>flight and not stay and fight when the going gets tough. The tough
>get
>going, Peugeot goes away. Example, when the second 604 that was
>exported to
>North America, enlarged to 2.8 liters with wonderful torque curve and
>great
>5-speed spacing (1979) to handle a/c (and three speed GM automatic)
>was
>rated at 12mpg city, (about 18-20 highway) Peugeot objected, fussed
>and
>withdrew the 604 gas, leaving only the Diesel. Perhaps other makers
>would
>have gone to fuel injection and more mpg as originally planned for the
>604
>and then used for the 505-V6. Or touted the wonderful drive,
>acceleration,
>and feel that comes from a powerful drive train that by necessity
>requires
>more fuel. Peugeot just quit, which may have been prudent for the
>then
>present but was not prudent for their future here. Their action was
>against
>interest because as good as the 505 was in certain respects, it was
>no
>Mercedes-BMW fighter in medium-full size cars as Mercedes thought the
>604
>was. By the way, the 12mpg city and 18-20mpg (memory) highway was
>accurate
>though at a steady 50-55, I could get 22mpg. Regards, Bernie
>>
>>
>> From: [Unknown Sender]
>> To: peugeot-L@egroups.com
>> Sent: January 4, 2001 5:19:33 AM GMT
>> Subject: [Peugeot-L] Re: Peugeot's standing "dans le monde entier"
>>
>>
>> I tend to agree with Bernie's summation, although Brian does have
>> some good points.
>>
>> However, most of the criteria Brian sets forth are very reminiscent
>> of an economist's take on what's really important. I am an
>> enthusiast first, although I am also conversant with economics.
>>
>> Please remember, above all, that economic criteria such as share
>> value, ROI, output and reputation within the industry are by
>> definition short-term, relatively epehemeral measures of worth.
>> Economics has many failings, among which are its inability to
>> effectively plan for even the meduim-term future. To illustrate
>this
>> point, consider the matter of discounting. Future revenues are
>> discounted by, say 8%-10% per year in terms of their "present
>value",
>> to the point where, after 7 or 9 years, the future becomes
>completely
>> irrelevant to economists. That is, a revenue 8 years in the future
>> has no present value (worth today). Of course this is a nonsense,
>> but it is one of the main principles of classical economics.
>> This "dismal science" is largely responsible for many of the
>world's
>> problems; I wouldn't consider it, on its own, to be a sound
>> foundation for predicting the long-term future of any enterprise.
>>
>> So, what is lacking in Brian's list is more of the things that I
>> value, related more to car ownership and enjoyment than pedagogical
>> abstractions or investment counselling:
>>
>> -bulletproof reliability (see Toyota and others)
>> -excellence in chassis design (PSA's been slipping here of late)
>> -very good build quality (could be better)
>> -superb ride (formerly a Peugeot hallmark)
>> -very tough, super-robust drivetrains (not really possible with
>FWD)
>> -design flair, beauty (a mixed bag, ranging from the 406C to the
>106)
>> -"je ne sais quoi", the intangible benefit of owning a particular
>car
>>
>> Then there are some other management issues, among which are:
>>
>> -aggressive management (not really, but it can get you into
>trouble)
>> -no fear of tough competition (they SHOULD be in USA, NOW!!!)
>> -positive attitude towards customers (it's not in the French
>psyche)
>> -good understanding of marketing (a mixed bag here)
>> -serious long-term committments to each market (I can dream can't
>I?)
>>
>> The reason that Peugeot cannot be a "world player" until they have
>> more than a token presence here is that the US market is without a
>> doubt the world's most competitive. I think Peugeot is literally
>> scared to death about all the US consumer protection laws, class
>> action lawsuits, warranty insurance costs, etc, and scared by the
>> abilities of their potential competition over here. This is,
>without
>> a doubt, the reason the US 605 was axed - they would have been in
>an
>> Audi 5000 situation with that car and it would have wounded them
>> badly. Although there is some evidence that their recent models
>have
>> improved, they are still average at best. This is not enough, they
>> have to strive to be better. Selling cars here would help in that
>> process, although getting there will be painful.
>>
>> Their current aggressive expansion is aimed at the Third World.
>Yes,
>> those markets are growing. But they are immature, and subject to
>> more volatility. Also, the "consumers" (formerly known
>> as "citizens", or "people") in these countries are not very
>> demanding, to be quite frank. If PSA is successful in this, and
>> these countries become PSA's main export market, don't you think
>> their customers in Europe might wonder in ten years' time why they
>> won't (or can't) sell a car in the USA, where customers are the
>most
>> demanding in the world? What would Peugeot's marketing slogan
>> be? "Buy a Peugeot, the official car of the Third World"?
>>
>> Participation in the US market sharpens competitive skills, demands
>> very high engineering and management skills and prepares companies
>> for any challenges elsewhere in the world. I've got to hand it to
>US
>> people, they don't take shitty or even average products lying down.
>> Western Europe is far behind here: Scandinavia and Germany are the
>EU
>> areas with the most advanced consumer laws/civil movements, and the
>> German Gov't still won't allow companies to offer standard
>warranties
>> exceeding 3 years (most are 1 year, 20,000 km!!), as it would be
>> an "unfair competitive advantage". BMWs and Mercedes have one year
>> warranties in their home markets; welcome to the 1960s! France
>lags
>> behind Germany in consumer law and awareness. And it is the
>> company's stronghold.
>>
>> Citroen will never be the same as it was in the 1960s - modern
>> markets don't allow for engineer's dreams to be built any more.
>> There is precious little room for unprofitable, over-engineered
>cars
>> these days. That's what almost sank Citroen in 1974 (and 1934, for
>> the historically inclined). The new Citroens will be innovative in
>> a "new Beetle" kind of way, but like the Beetle, more or less a
>mere
>> shadow of their former selves. The market wouldn't allow it to be
>> any other way.
>>
>> Another comment: I just can't accept that VALEO is a "top-notch
>> supplier". I've paid too much money to those "salauds" in
>> replacement parts to believe it! Mikey's Postulate on VALEO: I
>think
>> that they designed barely-adequate (crap) products on purpose, low-
>> balled the manufacturers with a super-cheap loss-leader contract,
>> intending all along to make all their profit by selling
>replacements
>> for the crap OEM stuff that breaks prematurely. Seriously.
>>
>> Brian, please don't laugh at the Prius. It may be ugly, but we'll
>> all be driving something like it in 15 years. Where is Peugeot
>with
>> the innovative hybrids? A few electric vehicles in municipal
>fleets
>> and for wealthy Parisians won't cut the mustard. You know why
>Honda,
>> Toyota, Mercedes and Ford are ahead on alternative fuels? Mainly
>> because of California's CARB regulations.
>>
>> Having written all that, I hope that PSA has an epiphany and comes
>> back to the USA and Canada. Because it is a healthy presence here
>> that will ensure their continuation over the long term. And I'd
>hate
>> to lose another of the world's oldest manufacturers.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Mike Tippett
>>
>>
>> Recommended format for your email subject lines:
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>>
>> Examples:
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>> 405 Mi16 89 Ignition Coil source?
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>>
>>
>>
>> Recommended format for your email subject lines:
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>>
>> Examples:
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>
>
>Recommended format for your email subject lines:
>Model # [Model Letters] Year Subject
>
>Examples:
>505 88 V6 Mileage
>405 Mi16 89 Ignition Coil source?
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Fri 05 Jan 2001 - 21:43:18 UTC