My email is screwed-up so: Jim, yes the 604V6-2.8 liter is great to drive but the man is right, Peugeot did not develop it. Yes, Mercedes considered it to be their main competition until Peugeot failed to further develop it. Taejin, my 2.8 604 did not have the key in door feature that rolls up windows and closes sun-roof, unless it was disconnected at some point, and I bought it new. It was 2.8, the gas-cap filler door is rectangle, on 2.6, it was round. Maybe the 604 auto trans came with only 2.6 but my 5 speed was 2849cc. Brian, my email (that is me) erased your last message; please resend it. The 604 gas was assembled in a garage but it drove magnificently. Regards to all.
------Original
From: "Taejin, Park" <tjp74@earthlink.net>
To: Peugeot-L@egroups.com, Bernard Kaye <eviebob@earthlink.net>, jacomb2@attglobal.net
Sent: January 5, 2001 8:02:35 AM GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Peugeot's standing "dans le monde entier"
I don't believe 2.8L V6 604 was ever imported in USA. All of early or last year 604 I've seen in US was a 2.7L with a carb and GM TH180 transmission. I had a 1979 US model and a 1980 US model (now sold) both wth GM automatic but all of them had 2.7L V6s in them.
Are they nice? NOPE.
Ok Ok.. yes they are decent cars. Smooth engine.. roomy interior.. and the feature? You thought key operated window rull up and sunroof closing feature on new Beattle was a inovative feature? It was already offered on 604. Lock the door with the key from the outside and it will roll up the windows and close the sunroof automatically. Plus silient pnematic power door lock. However it was certainly under developed and under designed car. Looks and feels like a prototype too me. (although I once, very briefly, thought that 604 was a very beautiful car. Guess when I bought those two 604s for top dollar.)
tj
----- Original Message -----
From: jacomb2@attglobal.net
To: Peugeot-L@egroups.com ; Bernard Kaye
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 10:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Peugeot-L] Re: Peugeot's standing "dans le monde entier"
Hi, Bernie!
Did BMW & Mercedes really feel the 604 line as "competition". I'd like to
drive the gas 2.8 6-cyl 604 sometime. Are they nice?
Jim Combs
504/604
-----
From: "Bernard Kaye" <eviebob@earthlink.net>
To: <Peugeot-L@egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 11:06 AM
Subject: RE: [Peugeot-L] Re: Peugeot's standing "dans le monde entier"
> Mike, Having a degree in economics, I agree with you that sometimes it
gets theorized to death of common sense. Also, that Peugeot tends to take
flight and not stay and fight when the going gets tough. The tough get
going, Peugeot goes away. Example, when the second 604 that was exported to
North America, enlarged to 2.8 liters with wonderful torque curve and great
5-speed spacing (1979) to handle a/c (and three speed GM automatic) was
rated at 12mpg city, (about 18-20 highway) Peugeot objected, fussed and
withdrew the 604 gas, leaving only the Diesel. Perhaps other makers would
have gone to fuel injection and more mpg as originally planned for the 604
and then used for the 505-V6. Or touted the wonderful drive, acceleration,
and feel that comes from a powerful drive train that by necessity requires
more fuel. Peugeot just quit, which may have been prudent for the then
present but was not prudent for their future here. Their action was against
interest because as good as the 505 was in certain respects, it was no
Mercedes-BMW fighter in medium-full size cars as Mercedes thought the 604
was. By the way, the 12mpg city and 18-20mpg (memory) highway was accurate
though at a steady 50-55, I could get 22mpg. Regards, Bernie
>
>
> From: [Unknown Sender]
> To: peugeot-L@egroups.com
> Sent: January 4, 2001 5:19:33 AM GMT
> Subject: [Peugeot-L] Re: Peugeot's standing "dans le monde entier"
>
>
> I tend to agree with Bernie's summation, although Brian does have
> some good points.
>
> However, most of the criteria Brian sets forth are very reminiscent
> of an economist's take on what's really important. I am an
> enthusiast first, although I am also conversant with economics.
>
> Please remember, above all, that economic criteria such as share
> value, ROI, output and reputation within the industry are by
> definition short-term, relatively epehemeral measures of worth.
> Economics has many failings, among which are its inability to
> effectively plan for even the meduim-term future. To illustrate this
> point, consider the matter of discounting. Future revenues are
> discounted by, say 8%-10% per year in terms of their "present value",
> to the point where, after 7 or 9 years, the future becomes completely
> irrelevant to economists. That is, a revenue 8 years in the future
> has no present value (worth today). Of course this is a nonsense,
> but it is one of the main principles of classical economics.
> This "dismal science" is largely responsible for many of the world's
> problems; I wouldn't consider it, on its own, to be a sound
> foundation for predicting the long-term future of any enterprise.
>
> So, what is lacking in Brian's list is more of the things that I
> value, related more to car ownership and enjoyment than pedagogical
> abstractions or investment counselling:
>
> -bulletproof reliability (see Toyota and others)
> -excellence in chassis design (PSA's been slipping here of late)
> -very good build quality (could be better)
> -superb ride (formerly a Peugeot hallmark)
> -very tough, super-robust drivetrains (not really possible with FWD)
> -design flair, beauty (a mixed bag, ranging from the 406C to the 106)
> -"je ne sais quoi", the intangible benefit of owning a particular car
>
> Then there are some other management issues, among which are:
>
> -aggressive management (not really, but it can get you into trouble)
> -no fear of tough competition (they SHOULD be in USA, NOW!!!)
> -positive attitude towards customers (it's not in the French psyche)
> -good understanding of marketing (a mixed bag here)
> -serious long-term committments to each market (I can dream can't I?)
>
> The reason that Peugeot cannot be a "world player" until they have
> more than a token presence here is that the US market is without a
> doubt the world's most competitive. I think Peugeot is literally
> scared to death about all the US consumer protection laws, class
> action lawsuits, warranty insurance costs, etc, and scared by the
> abilities of their potential competition over here. This is, without
> a doubt, the reason the US 605 was axed - they would have been in an
> Audi 5000 situation with that car and it would have wounded them
> badly. Although there is some evidence that their recent models have
> improved, they are still average at best. This is not enough, they
> have to strive to be better. Selling cars here would help in that
> process, although getting there will be painful.
>
> Their current aggressive expansion is aimed at the Third World. Yes,
> those markets are growing. But they are immature, and subject to
> more volatility. Also, the "consumers" (formerly known
> as "citizens", or "people") in these countries are not very
> demanding, to be quite frank. If PSA is successful in this, and
> these countries become PSA's main export market, don't you think
> their customers in Europe might wonder in ten years' time why they
> won't (or can't) sell a car in the USA, where customers are the most
> demanding in the world? What would Peugeot's marketing slogan
> be? "Buy a Peugeot, the official car of the Third World"?
>
> Participation in the US market sharpens competitive skills, demands
> very high engineering and management skills and prepares companies
> for any challenges elsewhere in the world. I've got to hand it to US
> people, they don't take shitty or even average products lying down.
> Western Europe is far behind here: Scandinavia and Germany are the EU
> areas with the most advanced consumer laws/civil movements, and the
> German Gov't still won't allow companies to offer standard warranties
> exceeding 3 years (most are 1 year, 20,000 km!!), as it would be
> an "unfair competitive advantage". BMWs and Mercedes have one year
> warranties in their home markets; welcome to the 1960s! France lags
> behind Germany in consumer law and awareness. And it is the
> company's stronghold.
>
> Citroen will never be the same as it was in the 1960s - modern
> markets don't allow for engineer's dreams to be built any more.
> There is precious little room for unprofitable, over-engineered cars
> these days. That's what almost sank Citroen in 1974 (and 1934, for
> the historically inclined). The new Citroens will be innovative in
> a "new Beetle" kind of way, but like the Beetle, more or less a mere
> shadow of their former selves. The market wouldn't allow it to be
> any other way.
>
> Another comment: I just can't accept that VALEO is a "top-notch
> supplier". I've paid too much money to those "salauds" in
> replacement parts to believe it! Mikey's Postulate on VALEO: I think
> that they designed barely-adequate (crap) products on purpose, low-
> balled the manufacturers with a super-cheap loss-leader contract,
> intending all along to make all their profit by selling replacements
> for the crap OEM stuff that breaks prematurely. Seriously.
>
> Brian, please don't laugh at the Prius. It may be ugly, but we'll
> all be driving something like it in 15 years. Where is Peugeot with
> the innovative hybrids? A few electric vehicles in municipal fleets
> and for wealthy Parisians won't cut the mustard. You know why Honda,
> Toyota, Mercedes and Ford are ahead on alternative fuels? Mainly
> because of California's CARB regulations.
>
> Having written all that, I hope that PSA has an epiphany and comes
> back to the USA and Canada. Because it is a healthy presence here
> that will ensure their continuation over the long term. And I'd hate
> to lose another of the world's oldest manufacturers.
>
> Regards,
> Mike Tippett
>
>
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